Curse

Andi DeMorte · May 28, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

After a brief discussion with my fiancee about player actions when events do not go as they plan/wish, I wish to present before you three questions.

1. Under what circumstances does it become acceptable to abuse another player?

2. When is the line crossed from being angry to abusive?

3. Does animosity and lack of consequence of such behavior provided through the internet perpetuate abuse or is it the lack of monitoring children by parents?

There are many excuses that we may put forth such as age and maturity but does that make such behavior acceptable? I don’t feel as though it does. Do we, as a community of players in the realm of any game, allow this behavior to persist? By allowing it to persist do we perpetuate such behavior? Can we make servers for idiots only?

This is a problem to which I know there is no real answer. Even when it is pointed out to abusers that their behavior is abusive it does not rectify the problem nor does it correct the behavior to seclude abusers with abusers since abuse begets abuse. The only solution to abuse of any kind is self will to become a better person.

What I would like to know is the general opinion as to when abusive behavior is acceptable and when does it cross the line from being angry to abusive so as to determine if such behavior is; a social problem that is worldwide, associated with certain genres or exclusive to any other statistical grouping.

The concern is that if children are not be monitored and corrected for behaving in such a way or if the animosity and lack of consequence allows people to act this way online if will leak into other parts of life and we become a world of people who are totally inept of the feelings of our fellow mankind. Are we laying the groundwork's of a world where we no longer care about anything but ourselves?

~Andi

Stabber · May 28, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

It's hard to answer in the abstract, but I prefer hard stances when it comes to abuse:

Abusive behavior is never acceptable.

I assume you are curious about how this applies to Guild Wars. NC Interactive agrees with the hardline stance at least in theory. See their User agreement (particularly sec. 4(j)) and the Rules of conduct item 5. However, I do think that they are very lax about policing violations of their user agreement (and for good reason, as they are in the business of game making, not babysitting).

In reality, the question of whether something is abusive or not tends to be the contested point.

Overnite · May 28, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Welcome to the internet, please enjoy your stay.

Parson Brown · May 28, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andi DeMorte

[FONT="Georgia"]After a brief discussion with my fiancee about player actions when events do not go as they plan/wish, I wish to present before you three questions.

1. Under what circumstances does it become acceptable to abuse another player?

2. When is the line crossed from being angry to abusive?

3. Does animosity and lack of consequence of such behavior provided through the internet perpetuate abuse or is it the lack of monitoring children by parents?

snip

1) Never
2) When you attack the player instead of the player's actions
3) I think that the anonymous nature of the Internet lets people attack without fear of reprocussion. In a lot of ways, it lets us show out true forms. But it also lets us try out different personas.
I visit another video game site and do a lot of trolling. Now that's not me, I never have an unkind word to say to anyone in real life, or in GW, really, but it's fun to play "dress-up" if you will, every once in a while.

I'd guess that some of the flamers in GW are really nasty people/kids and others just want to flex their e-muscles.

led-zep · May 28, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

if you let some anonymous person who you will never meet upset you or you feel the need to get wound up by what someone types in a game then i feel very sorry for you.
maybe just stop being so sensitive and quit feeling so precious that you dont think anyone should (god forbid) say something you dont like. ignore them, laugh at them, have a go back at them, just dont take it personally.

Maria The Princess · May 28, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

those who flame and diss people on internet, while being protected by the distance between screens and anonymosty (sry my bad english), will get used to it VERY fast, and will end up getting majorly burned in real life, due to poor person vs person (and not player vs player) experience.

as soon as they will get burned more then once, thery will be scared and pushed to the corner. they will have no choise then to change their behavior, even on a subcontious level of their little brains, due to their own nature of being cowards. because this is what most of internet flamers are, becuse if they are not, they dont need to proove to anybody (including themselfes) of their "coolness"

makosi · May 28, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnite

Welcome to the internet, please enjoy your stay.

True. In this day and age there is a lot of pressure on young people - some more than others. Some live in fear of failure, or their reputation as a result of failure because schools/parents have high expectations of them at all times. They play GW to escape (its the best escapism) and to be someone else temporarily. This 'someone else' is still the same pressurized, stressed kid behind the computer screen from which there is very little policing and they don't feel as if they have to hold in their feelings as much which causes angry outbursts at the emotional expense of other players. As radical as it sounds, a lot of it is not due to the individuals but the society they are molded and forced in to. If you make people live so unnaturally, their behaviour changes. Take a Panda out of the wild and put him in a cage and he'll change from sombre and erratic at the slightest changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andi DeMorte

What I would like to know is the general opinion as to when abusive behavior is acceptable and when does it cross the line from being angry to abusive so as to determine if such behavior is; a social problem that is worldwide, associated with certain genres or exclusive to any other statistical grouping.

My opinion is that abusiveness is when another individual suffers unnecessary distress as a result of others' decisions/actions. I wouldn't call it a 'social problem' as such because the characters are facias distorting peoples' true personalities and considering that there are much more serious worldwide problems, policing this type of abuse is not a high priority in modern society. When people close their GW client I think they fully resort back to themselves so it won't leak in to the 'real world'. If that were ever to happen the people would be put in to place before they knew it.

Olfin Bedwere · May 28, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Abusive behavior is NEVER acceptable, period.

I blame it all on Jackass and Bam Mageras. They`re turning our kids into idiots.

Tijger · May 28, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olfin Bedwere

Abusive behavior is NEVER acceptable, period.

I blame it all on Jackass and Bam Mageras. They`re turning our kids into idiots.

Agreed on #1.

Disagree, no TV program can 'turn kids into idiots', the choices we make with regards to behavior are not based on TV programs but on values and morals.
No, this is not some kind of religious crackpot but a very liberal, social-democrat speaking, one who learned from his parents that abuse and abusive behavior is wrong and that disagreement can either be resolved or, if it cannot, you simply disengage from dealing with the person or situation.

generik · May 28, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

It's the sad consequence of dual incoming families. As much as female activists would speak otherwise don't we all agree that such things are much less of an occurence back in the day when mothers actually *gasp* raise their kids?

Sadly capitalism FTW! Everybody, man and woman, needs to work nowadays so they can get their same XBOX360s and SUVs to keep up with the Joneses next door...

Imp · May 28, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

I know this has been suggested before, but the minimap needs to be colored on who is drawing it but light colors so people can see it (white [player1] Lightblue [player 2] light purple [player 2] so on and so forth.) this would stop the penising, nazi, and T&A, it woud be great because when you see 2 arrows going diffent ways, you would see a white one and a light blue one, knowing that the white one is your guildie, and the light blue one is the wammo running off by him self. I find it easy to find out who is drawing this stuff, because most of the time it is an idiot who stops running to draw this stuff, and there is that one dot standing still, and running after the art class is done. derr

As for the abusiveness in chat and such, it doesn't bother me, because most of the time the rest of your team is already heading against them, and they are going to be outruled very easily. They may go try to train, but the monk will just let them die and stay dead. (we can normally live without 1 wammo)

Oh, and don't just asume this is children all the time, there are a ton of very immature adults out there, and one of my guildies is 16, and he is one of the most mature people I know.

Chicken Ftw · May 29, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

1. It should be obvious, but I'll say it anyway: never.

2. It's alright to say something someone did wasn't smart, but to call them a fool who should take a long walk off a short pier is too far. ;p

3. I blame three factors... the anonymity of the internet, bad parenting, and a choice to act that way. The whole "you'll never know me in real life, so I can act however I want" mindset is problem one. Problem two, is people (not just kids, I've seen plenty of middleaged people being buffoons) not having enough values instilled by their parents/society. And the final, largest problem, is the person simply deciding to be a jerk. You can put all the values you want into peoples' heads, but they have to decide to act on those values themselves. If someone's bent on being a moron, there's not much you can do about it but ignore them and walk away.

Kern Wolf · May 29, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by led-zep

if you let some anonymous person who you will never meet upset you or you feel the need to get wound up by what someone types in a game then i feel very sorry for you.
maybe just stop being so sensitive and quit feeling so precious that you dont think anyone should (god forbid) say something you dont like. ignore them, laugh at them, have a go back at them, just dont take it personally.

This sounds like you're saying we should just take whatever abuse someone is dishing out---no way.
It's not a matter of being sensitive, or feeling precious--it's called common courtesy, plain and simple. Would you take abuse from someone you meet on the street? No, you wouldnt. The Internet is no different.

Maria The Princess · May 29, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

lets all be the "older person" and ignore these kids (or not so kids) with no self esteem

do we even realise that us getting upset/angry/frustrated/ sad is exactly the reaction they are looking for? by showing them that we CARE we only encourage them to keep going with their flamings

Eviance · May 29, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by led-zep

if you let some anonymous person who you will never meet upset you or you feel the need to get wound up by what someone types in a game then i feel very sorry for you.
maybe just stop being so sensitive and quit feeling so precious that you dont think anyone should (god forbid) say something you dont like. ignore them, laugh at them, have a go back at them, just dont take it personally.

See, it drives me nuts when someone posts the little kid crossing the finish line - and it says Arguing on the internet is like running the special olympics - Even if you win you are still retarded...

First off, other than the bots that don't talk back (normally) everyone online is HUMAN and ALIVE! To me they are just as real. If you got their addy and went to see them, they are just as real as a best friend or your worst enemy. I get so tired of people who say that the internet isn't real.... Many of my guildies are friends I have had over the net for years. I have met them in real life. Gone on looooooong road trips with a few. Even lived at their houses for a month here or there for extended visits. And some of them, I would trust more than my own family.

So when you say things like you feel sorry for me that I let it bother me.... Fine, but it still amuses me that coming from someone who thinks its so sad to care what someone thinks that you would feel sorry for me.

You are just as real as me, people DIE to others they meet on the internet. Others meet online and get married. Some just remain friends.

If someone is being abusive to you online, its the same as real life to me. They can be just as dangerous or just as kind as someone in real life. That person treating you kind or like crap, could live right next door and you would never know it.

So abuse is always abuse when that person says something that is over the line - when confronted they just get even worse. Someone unwilling to work out the issue in a peaceful manner is over stepping the line and should be banned, no matter what the situation. Everything can be worked out peacefully and we can all be decent if we choose. I may get rude on the boards but I know the boundaries and if I overstep them I have no problem being nice. I have yet to overstep those boundaries ingame. I usually just say something like: "just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to get hateful about it" OR I just block them.

Anyone under 15yrs old shouldnt be playing anyways >_< Same goes with those who have the mentality of a 12yr old! Shoot I have a 12yr old in my guild who acts 17, his brother on the other hand.... 15yrs old and acts like he is 7 >_< Can't win them all folks.

Ira Blinks · May 29, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

it is funny how people seem to think that it is bad to use abusive language and stuff (i.e. "be jerk"), but it is ok to be an idiot, clueless moron and behave foolishly in general. When someone ruining my game he is told to go straigh to hell. And whoever has a problem with that can go the same way.

Stockholm · May 29, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

It's the sad consequence of dual incoming families. As much as female activists would speak otherwise don't we all agree that such things are much less of an occurence back in the day when mothers actually *gasp* raise their kids?

It has nothing too do with "duel Income families", it is the effect off the liberal way's of the 60's and 70's when teaching your children the "old" way was frownd up on, you no longer had to accept that an older person told you anything, thoes teenagers are now raising kid's and do not belive in spanking children when needed. Sad to say there has to be a punishment for wrong behavier, something that makes you sit back and say " no that will hurt if they find out". Being grounded with your computer is no punishment. Getting a sore backside, so you can't sit at computer is.

Quote:

it is funny how people seem to think that it is bad to use abusive language and stuff (i.e. "be jerk"), but it is ok to be an idiot, clueless moron and behave foolishly in general. When someone ruining my game he is told to go straigh to hell. And whoever has a problem with that can go the same way.

Let me guess. You more or less spend all your time at the "puter", can't se you have many friends.

samifly · May 29, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Just because anonymity shows peoples true nature doesnt mean that anonmyity is wrong. its the people's actions that are wrong. If you treat the internet as a fake place, than your actions will show that (treating others as not real). If you treat online and internet relations as real, then your actions will show that. And it has nothing to do with mothers not staying at home and/or liberals.

Olfin Bedwere · May 29, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

it is funny how people seem to think that it is bad to use abusive language and stuff (i.e. "be jerk"), but it is ok to be an idiot, clueless moron and behave foolishly in general. When someone ruining my game he is told to go straigh to hell. And whoever has a problem with that can go the same way.

So basically your saying to lower yourself to their level when a "You being a jerk is unwanted here so go away" would suffice. I don`t tolerate jerks but I don`t become one to get rid of them either.

Demesis · May 29, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

It's pathetic. The statistics I see on GW is 80% jerks. There isn't one day where I can go online and not see one.

However, it make me feel better that I'm more mature and more superior than them because I have excellent social skills in real life. When I apply that to GW, people liked me so much that I have even received 1k as random gifts, gold max Magmas Shields and someone even gave me a Gordac's Needle (Which I sold for 10k - Refer to stupidest things I've done thread

).

I'm not angry at jerks on GW, but I feel very sorry for them. Because you can just feel that they are some fat hormonal teenager who gets his luch money beaten out of him by school bullies. I should know that because I used to be a bully, and the guy I picked on would take his frustrations out in Runescape.

So yeah don't feel angry, feel sorry for them. Pity those poor adolescent halfwits, because GW is the only way they can feel better by putting other people down.